Opinion: The difficulty facing Canon (and everyone else)

[neuroanatomist]

In my experience, at check-in. They will ask you to put your carry-on on to the luggage scale, and then tag your carry-on bag with a "Carry On" tag. They will apparently deny you boarding at the gate if you attempt to bring untagged bags onboard.

Interesting, thanks. Regarding the last part, I saw several people boarding with tagged carryons. Ours were not, and there were no issues at the gate (with bags, that is…one hassle of traveling with kids is that they grow so quickly the biometric/facial recognition at modern gates does not work if their passport pictures are more than a couple of years old).

 

[neuroanatomist]

In spite of all this, Canon forecasts that they will sell 2.9 million interchangeable lens cameras this year, for an ILC market share of (2.9/5.85) almost 50%.

Their Q2 2023 camera-only revenue was +11.8% compared to Q2 2022.

You mean, in spite of all the people here who seem to think they know more about the camera business than Canon?

 

[AlanF]

In my experience, at check-in. They will ask you to put your carry-on on to the luggage scale, and then tag your carry-on bag with a "Carry On" tag. They will apparently deny you boarding at the gate if you attempt to bring untagged bags onboard.

I rarely check in baggage so invariably go straight to the gate with carry on luggage with no tags, and have never been stopped.

 

[frankchn]

I rarely check in baggage so invariably go straight to the gate with carry on luggage with no tags, and have never been stopped.

Yeah the only experience I had with this is when I flew Zipair SFO-NRT. Zipair is a low cost carrier with strict carry-on requirements, and you can purchase additional carry-on baggage weight if you exceed their limits. They also don't have an online check-in/print boarding pass option for this reason.

Never had to weigh any bags like this with mainline carriers.

 

[AJ]

I think there are two parts to this. First is the fact that cellphone photography has improved leaps and bounds by both camera design and computational techniques, including AI. The second part is that the vast majority of people are shooting for social media, and very few people print these days. So, if all you need is a 1000 pixel wide photo, then a cell phone is plenty.

Think of the workflows. With a cellphone you can take a picture, and with a few swipes and taps you can post it to Insta with your favourite filter applied. With a dedicated camera, you take the picture, save it as raw, go home, upload the raw file to your desktop computer, demosaic and process with expensive software, and then post. The first workflow takes seconds; the second hours or days (or even weeks, when out on a longer trip).

The other bit I wanted to comment on from Richard's post was this: "Users of Canon APS-C mirrorless are left in a total mess as they are left wondering where things stand with the RF-S users" Yeah, no kidding. This is the latest from Canon (https://petapixel.com/2023/08/18/canon-has-no-plans-to-ever-release-lens-roadmaps/) Quote:

In a related discussion, Canon was asked about the future of APS-C RF-S lenses, of which the company declined to answer, stating that all of its lenses are available to use on the crop-sensor format, even if the optics were designed for full-frame.​

“As you know, the RF mount can be used with both full-frame and APS-C cameras, and all lenses are suitable. Some of these full-frame lenses can be attached on top of APS-C cameras, so you can attach an existing full-frame lens to your APS-C camera and enjoy shooting scenes to your heart’s content,” the Canon executives said.​

In short, APSC users are told to quit whining and just buy a full-frame lens. Thanks for nothing, Canon.

 

[Skux]

Canon does not offer anything premium and small. Every APS-C lens is cheap, plastic and slow. Any small and affordable full frame RF lens has slow AF motor and lacks any weathersealing.

This issue is at the core of this article. Canon has always dangled the FF carrot in front of consumers ever since the introduction of APS-C. At the same time, cellphones have made small cameras redundant, especially small premium cameras.

For those of us who love photography as a hobby it's either large high end pro gear or small but subpar entry level offerings when it comes to Canon. I would love a small premium M6 II successor, or a retro-style FF mirrorless camera, but Canon just isn't that company.

 

[Walrus]

The thought of lugging that 1.5 kg lens all day and most of the night at a wedding leaves me cold ! Or rather exhausted. The reason being that as it covers virtually all scenarios you’d be holding it up to your eye much of the time. You’d probably want it on a gripped camera body too, and when you add the flash…….my wrist is aching just thinking about it !!

A good Blackrapid strap would do the job; I had done weddings, but also music festivals in the past (I was younger then, tbh) with two gripped cameras with 24-70 2.8 and 70-200 2.8 for 12+ hours, I just wear two straps in an X shape, one per shoulder, and I'm good to go.
Yes, at the end of the day you feel it on your upper body, but it's not so bad tbh, and you hold up to the eye only when needed, so the arms are not working hard.

 

[Sporgon]

I would love a small premium M6 II successor, or a retro-style FF mirrorless camera, but Canon just isn't that company.

If Sony go ahead with the rumoured a7cR and it were to sell well, I wonder if Canon might produce a more upmarket R8; sensor from the R5, mag alloy body, better sealed, as a premium, ultra lightweight landscaping body.

 

[Rumours not rumors]

Minolta was not bought out by Sony. Minolta was bought out by Konica and at a later stage, Konica sold off their SLR camera division to Sony.

 

[AlanF]

If Sony go ahead with the rumoured a7cR and it were to sell well, I wonder if Canon might produce a more upmarket R8; sensor from the R5, mag alloy body, better sealed, as a premium, ultra lightweight landscaping body.

If it has an R5 sensor with the upgraded R6 II firmware, then it will be a successor to the R5.

 

[blackcoffee17]

In spite of all this, Canon forecasts that they will sell 2.9 million interchangeable lens cameras this year, for an ILC market share of (2.9/5.85) almost 50%.

Their Q2 2023 camera-only revenue was +11.8% compared to Q2 2022.

Apple could make a toilet seat and would still sell well for $500. Canon makes some amazing products but also is selling a lot because of the Canon logo!

 

[blackcoffee17]

Apple could make a toilet seat and would still sell well for $500. Canon makes some amazing products but is also selling a lot because of the Canon logo!

 

[blackcoffee17]

I think there are two parts to this. First is the fact that cellphone photography has improved leaps and bounds by both camera design and computational techniques, including AI. The second part is that the vast majority of people are shooting for social media, and very few people print these days. So, if all you need is a 1000 pixel wide photo, then a cell phone is plenty.

Think of the workflows. With a cellphone you can take a picture, and with a few swipes and taps you can post it to Insta with your favourite filter applied. With a dedicated camera, you take the picture, save it as raw, go home, upload the raw file to your desktop computer, demosaic and process with expensive software, and then post. The first workflow takes seconds; the second hours or days (or even weeks, when out on a longer trip).

The other bit I wanted to comment on from Richard's post was this: "Users of Canon APS-C mirrorless are left in a total mess as they are left wondering where things stand with the RF-S users" Yeah, no kidding. This is the latest from Canon (https://petapixel.com/2023/08/18/canon-has-no-plans-to-ever-release-lens-roadmaps/) Quote:

In a related discussion, Canon was asked about the future of APS-C RF-S lenses, of which the company declined to answer, stating that all of its lenses are available to use on the crop-sensor format, even if the optics were designed for full-frame.​

“As you know, the RF mount can be used with both full-frame and APS-C cameras, and all lenses are suitable. Some of these full-frame lenses can be attached on top of APS-C cameras, so you can attach an existing full-frame lens to your APS-C camera and enjoy shooting scenes to your heart’s content,” the Canon executives said.​

In short, APSC users are told to quit whining and just buy a full-frame lens. Thanks for nothing, Canon.

Well, i wanted an R7 and R50 for lightweight travel but will get a Sony A6700 or Fuji instead. Thanks Canon!

 

[blackcoffee17]

You’ve used Ryanair a million times and you’ve lived to tell the tale ? Congratulations !

What was this clever reply about?

 

[Jethro]

I know a guy that wore a 200-400 under his George Costanza sized puffer jacket to check-in and board.

Come on now, were YOU that guy?

 

[Marphoto]

What an incredibly non-astute conclusion. Canon entered the MILC market in 2012 with the EOS M, and over the next 5 years that line became the most popular MILC line globally (based on unit sales). Then they entered the FF MILC market in 2018, and 4 years later they became the #1 overall MILC brand in Japan (and possibly the world, we'll know that later this year). All the while, they have maintained a nearly 50% overall share of the ILC market as a whole.

But you conclude they were 'caught napping'.

In 2013, Sony released the first slew of MILC’s including the A7 series. By 2017 they released the groundbreaking A9 with its stellar AF. What professional MILC’s did Canon present in 2019? By 2020, Sony led the MILC market. Canon released their first semi-pro body the R5 in July of 2020. It was not until November of 2021 that Canon released a pro body with a BIS, the R3. Market share and technology are not synonymous so yes, they were caught napping. Perhaps you should re-read the original op-ed and review the history.

 

[Madbox]

All the valid points I've had to consider as I hung out in Canon's limbo waiting to see which way the EOS M system would fall. New cameras have come out with their heavy RF lenses and a few RF-S lenses for their new APSC cameras. Still only crickets on EOS M. Meanwhile Nikon, Sony, and Fuji especially have come out with some astonishing new APSC cameras for those of us not wanting to pull a wagon of gear and glass when out in the wild with our cameras.

Fuji has released 4 new and amazing APSC cameras in the last year. They continue to support their lens mount and have an extensive lineup of glass from in house and other manufacturers. Canon and their EOS M silence has left me feeling like the employee who continues to go to work, but was fired and never told. As I jump ship for Fuji, there is nobody to blame but Canon.

 

[frankchn]

In 2013, Sony released the first slew of MILC’s including the A7 series. By 2017 they released the groundbreaking A9 with its stellar AF. What professional MILC’s did Canon present in 2019? By 2020, Sony led the MILC market. Canon released their first semi-pro body the R5 in July of 2020. It was not until November of 2021 that Canon released a pro body with a BIS, the R3. Market share and technology are not synonymous so yes, they were caught napping. Perhaps you should re-read the original op-ed and review the history.

I think in 2012 Canon viewed EOS M as a introduction to the Canon ecosystem with the view that they will upgrade to a EOS DSLR with an EF/EF-S mount eventually. (To be fair, so did Nikon with the Nikon 1 system).

Obviously that view turned out to be incorrect and MILC technology progressed to such a point (some of it driven by Canon themselves with DPAF) that both Canon and Nikon were forced to abandon the EF and F mounts. Canon and Nikon also left their EF-M and 1 system customers in the lurch as those were not designed with FF cameras in mind.

Meanwhile Sony has gone from strength to strength with the A7, A9, and A1 camera lines and now has the most well-rounded native MILC lens range with good 3P support for the lenses Sony doesn't make. Meanwhile, we still don't have wide angle L primes (where is the RF 35L? It's been 5 years since the original Canon R).

So despite good sales numbers, I can see why pro/advanced amateur customers are less than pleased with Canon so far.

 

[neuroanatomist]

In 2013, Sony released the first slew of MILC’s including the A7 series. By 2017 they released the groundbreaking A9 with its stellar AF. What professional MILC’s did Canon present in 2019? By 2020, Sony led the MILC market. Canon released their first semi-pro body the R5 in July of 2020. It was not until November of 2021 that Canon released a pro body with a BIS, the R3. Market share and technology are not synonymous so yes, they were caught napping. Perhaps you should re-read the original op-ed and review the history.

In 2013, less than 20% of ILCs sold were mirrorless. In 2017, that fraction was barely over 30%. DSLRs outsold MILCs until 2020, and Canon led the ILC market that entire time and dominated the market for the last few of those years. In 2016, Sony launched their last DSLR, finally deciding they could not effectively compete with Canon and Nikon for the majority of the ILC market. That year, Canon launched the 5DIV and 1D X II, and in 2020 Canon launched the 1D X III. From a business standpoint, when you dominate the largest market segment, developing new products for that segment makes more sense than developing products for a minority market. The point is that Canon intentionally focused their efforts at the high end of the market on what remained the major market segment, even as they advanced their APS-C MILC line to become the global best-seller. Perhaps you should review history through the lens of business strategy. They were not 'caught napping' in any sense. The fact that you don't agree with what was manifestly a successful business strategy is your problem, not a problem with the strategy. If you want to suggest someone was 'caught napping', that someone was Nikon. Canon's market share remained pretty stable at close to 50% as Sony made strong gains and Nikon suffered significant losses.

In re-reading the original op-ed, I note that Richard doesn't use words like groundbreaking and stellar in regards to Sony, but rather mentions, "The absolute horror...of switching to Sony." Perhaps you missed that part, lol.

On a personal note, I don't believe Sony has ever released a professional MILC. The a9 is that from a specifications perspective, but not from an ergonomic perspective. The R3 ticks all the boxes for me, since I can handhold it all day with even a lens like the groundbreaking, stellar 28-70/2. If Sony even had such a lens, my hand would be a wreck after a day of using it on the a9.

 

[kmrahe]

While I was unaware of carry-on weight restrictions in some parts of the world, I concur with everything Richard says. I came into the ILC market just over a year ago when I bought an M50 Mark II on the basis of nothing but specs., price, online reviews and brand recognition, in pretty much that order. I haven't regretted my decision for a minute, despite discovering since that "experts" in Canon's community support forums and elsewhere wouldn't recommend one if it was the last camera Canon was going to make. I've grown to appreciate the compactness and light weight of the system including my 3 Canon EF-M lenses, such that it goes with me practically everywhere. It's the fact that the system cannot yet be duplicated in an RF-mount camera that has me saying that even today I would still recommend the M50 to certain people over the R50/R100, which gets some people incensed, even though they can't argue against my rationale.