Canon not going global shutter with next round of EOS R camera bodies

[Del Paso]

Among my gripes with the R are that the EVF doesn't have automatic brightness adjustment (although I noticed this was more of a problem for me who wears glasses), that I couldn't find any use for the touch-bar (despite quite a bit of effort, will and the desire to use it somehow), the fact that in Servo AF it sometimes likes to "wander" on the background if the background is relatively close to the main subject and if it is rich in contrast, the diopter adjustment wheel moves too easily and does not have any indication of the zero position, complicated connectivity, poor implementation of the review of captured photos... And that's it, more or less. Great camera, just as I'm sure the R5II and R1 will be regardless of the fact that neither of them will likely have a global shutter.

I've glued the diopter adjustment in place, like I did on my 5 D III and 5 D IV. Poorly implemented by Canon...
And I use the touch bar for the E-level, but I agree, I'd prefer a button.

 

[David - Sydney]

So, why complain about DP"R?

"Why not" is one simple answer and I don't complain that much compared to some others in the forum

I am not saying that the Z8 isn't a great camera or that the R5 should have got the best award for instance. My main beef was that DPR is still going on about the overheating issue when they haven't taken into account the firmware updates since their reviews 3 years ago. Just another example of lazy writing in my opinion but it is what it is. At least they included it in the list but would have been accused of gross bias if they hadn't.

 

[David - Sydney]

In my experience the guides were also out of date often enough to not be the best source of advice. Compare that to something like the MacRumors Buyer's Guide which is always up to date and also tracks expected release cycles and upcoming products.

I like macrumors as well but the difference is an annual upgrade cycle for iphone and (now) ipad/air/mbp cycle of ~2years vs 2-4 year upgrade cycle for camera bodies and longer if ever) for lenses.

 

[David - Sydney]

I gave up on reading their reviews years ago. Is their bias and lack of Canon experience still present?
...
Maybe they’ve changed, but if they’re still talking about video overhearing in the R5 as a current problem, it seems not.

I read reviews from all sources and DPR used to have a wide audience. To give them the benefit of the doubt, their budget and threatened closure probably means that they haven't been able to consider FW upgrades vs reviews for new shiny bodies.
I have occasionally dipped into a forum and they seem more moderated now but still full of sony supporters. A few commentators must be full time.

If a message is repeated so many times then it must be true... whether politics or camera forums.

 

[David - Sydney]

Now that is highly debatable IMO. R maybe if you really like Canon, but RP better than Z6 (II) or Z7? No IBIS, worse viewfinder, worse battery life, almost no AF in (cropped) 4K, body which requires a bottom plate to be nice to hold, not to mention the sensor (DR, video specs etc.)

C'mon man, this is not the SAR comment section, blind brand loyalty is not why we are here.

In defense of the RP, the current pricing (dropped 9 months after release) puts it in a class of its own. Normally USD1k vs R8 @ USD1500. Today B&H has it at USD900 vs R8 @ USD1300 so the latest Canon base level FF body is between 40 and 50% more expensive.
I can't compare to Nikon's bodies at the time though.
Just like global shutter there are pros and cons... If you don't need video or IBIS or fast AF tracking then it still does a decent job for its size/cost.
For me it is a backup for my R5 mostly for landscape/astro. No issues using it for timelapses at night for instance

 

[David - Sydney]

The R from an "output" perspective was functionally identical to the 5D MKIV, which was great. It was missing some of the features of that body such as dual card slots that were later incorporated into the R5, but those don't impact outputs. And the R5 was released less than 2 years after the R.

And the R was priced considerably cheaper than the 5Div.
I just checked B&H and the R is no longer available!
The 5Div still is and weirdly enough still has 2 models for with/without the clog (USD2800/2700). I thought that the clog was standard a long time ago but maybe there is stock on the shelves there.

 

[snapshot]

The R had the sensor of the 5DIV, the Z7 that of the D850. For birds in flight, both the R and the Z7 are not as good as their DSLR counterparts and birders recommend the DSLRs because of their better AF. I used the the 5DIV as my main body for several years and the D850 for a year or so. The D850 is what the 5DV should have been. The D850/Z7 sensor is much better than the 5DIV/R, and it took the R5 for Canon to match it.

My daughter bought an R a few months ago, and relative to my 5Div she likes the R's exposure simulation and eye/face focus. Combining DP auto focus with mechanical shutter is sometimes a win also.

 

[DrD]

I chose Canon as my camera system because of their glass. Canon invented the USM focusing system in 1987, others copied. Personally, I like Canon L glass for the color rendition, having had the T2i Rebel (550D), 7D, and 5D2 bodies (like many other here) I enjoyed the evolution, especially using lenses like the EF 70-200 and 24-70 f2.8 mark 1. Sharpness and OOF backgrounds seemed less important characteristics when compared to the colors SOOC. Briefly, I flirted with Sony - I purchased the A73 with Zeiss glass etc. My images were tack sharp albeit all with a blue-green hue, I missed the Canon colors! When the R5 came out I got one as soon as I was able to and have not looked back. It is light years ahead of the legendary 5D2.

When the R5II is launched, I will get one. In fact, I have been stashing cash (literally in books, drawers etc.) in anticipation. I may keep my existing R5 as a 2nd body or I may sell it, but I have half a dozen L lenses that are going nowhere. Whatever new features the R5II will bring, I am sure that there will be significant improvements to the current model. Double CF Express type B, eye-AF, better stacked BSI sensor with faster readout and improved rolling shutter (as a consequence), possibly improved DR, AF (modes for different types of animals/objects etc), incremental gains to low-light performance and video modes (perhaps even codecs - the Z8 shoots Apple ProRes internally), FPS and so on.

No doubt, whatever the improvements, some people will complain. When you used to process negatives and hang them from the shower curtain rail to dry and used a reducer/enlarger to expose your negatives onto 5 by 7 inch photo paper in total darkness, using a test-strip and counting aloud: 1001, 1002...1012, to later determine which exposure band looks best, all so you can repeat the process again to get your final print, then you are so thankful for Capture One or Lightroom to play with digital negatives (RAW files). Canon spoil us all nowadays. When global shutters are ubiquitous, I'm confident that Canon bodies of the future will have them too. Until then, just enjoy your camera system and take pictures every day (if you can). My 2 cents.

 

[John Wilde]

First Canon was doomed by the lack of third-party lenses, but that didn't hurt their sales. Now they are doomed by a single US$6,000 camera model that won't ship until "Spring 2024". Get a grip.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Get a grip.

The VG-C5 vertical grip is available for pre-order Nov. 8, 2023, at a variety of Sony’s authorized dealers, for a suggested retail price of $399.99 USD.

 

[DhlcadR6]

At least, Sony's marketing works with many spec oriented guys. It is a bit like selling deodorants. I once learned from marketing people that if you want to introduce a new deodorant for male customers successfully, you need to connect it with a lot fancy pseudo high-tech blurb stuff.

Sony's marketing is perfect for Tech sites who have editors&writters that have no time to use them but still managed to pull reviews from their arxx.

We had to wait for the R5 to come along.

If using 5DIV(2016) and 5DsR(2015) as a comparison. R5 introduce in 2020 is still within typical camera product life-cycle.

It is longer than that if we include DSLRs.

D850(2017) to Z6/Z7 is a downgrade, so yeah, wait 6 years for Z8 was long.

What is weird is that most of the people Sony invited to their event do not need a global shutter and those people are now trying to explain what a global shutter is and why we all need one.
I never really care about tech.
I just want to see how good it is at solving the problems that it is supposed to solve.

If they just say GS is only good for high-speed flashlight photography, YouTubers can't make 5+minute videos out of it and get paid by Sony. They need the precious Sony money truck. Look at Tony&Chelsa ** cough cough **

Now that is highly debatable IMO. R maybe if you really like Canon, but RP better than Z6 (II) or Z7? No IBIS, worse viewfinder, worse battery life, almost no AF in (cropped) 4K, body which requires a bottom plate to be nice to hold, not to mention the sensor (DR, video specs etc.)

C'mon man, this is not the SAR comment section, blind brand loyalty is not why we are here.

Right now, RP is really cheap enough to justify its short-comings, and firmware updates made RP focus better than a7ii/a7rii/Z5. It was a trim down 6Dii. And yes it deserves some bashing during launch.

IBIS should not be a criticism point for Canon, as their RF lenses are mostly IS equipped.

View attachment 212914

For landscapes, desperate need for DR is justifyable. Anything else is excuses for wrong exposure settings.

"Why not" is one simple answer and I don't complain that much compared to some others in the forum

I am not saying that the Z8 isn't a great camera or that the R5 should have got the best award for instance. My main beef was that DPR is still going on about the overheating issue when they haven't taken into account the firmware updates since their reviews 3 years ago. Just another example of lazy writing in my opinion but it is what it is. At least they included it in the list but would have been accused of gross bias if they hadn't.

DPR is too lazy to change the sentence to "Cons: 30minute recording limit per roll."

The VG-C5 vertical grip is available for pre-order Nov. 8, 2023, at a variety of Sony’s authorized dealers, for a suggested retail price of $399.99 USD.

Or always wait for Meike MK-A9III battery grip for $99.99USD during the day of a9iii ships from Sony's factory in Thailand.

 

[photographer]

My take is opt for Stacked BSI CMOS. Yes you only have no more than 1/500 flash sync speed, so you won't be able to use flash outdoor to take portaits that can turn into sunsets. And yes you won't catch Superman or Flash in the frame

 

[justaCanonuser]

For landscapes, desperate need for DR is justifyable. Anything else is excuses for wrong exposure settings.

That's true, but back in the days of slide film (my fav), EVERY subject needed careful exposure settings

 

[justaCanonuser]

I read reviews from all sources and DPR used to have a wide audience. To give them the benefit of the doubt, their budget and threatened closure probably means that they haven't been able to consider FW upgrades vs reviews for new shiny bodies.
I have occasionally dipped into a forum and they seem more moderated now but still full of sony supporters. A few commentators must be full time.

If a message is repeated so many times then it must be true... whether politics or camera forums.

I recently restarted my occasional visits of DPR, mostly of pure sentimentality I admit, to help gear patrol a bit. Before that crisis, I took a long break. In the first decade of this century, it was a great place for lab reviews (back then still desperately needed, CMOS sensor tech was underwhelming). Plus, you could expect a useful exchange in the threads about gear issues etc. Then, the Sony paTROLL started to trickle into Canon threads, and I said good-bye to DPR. Today, it is a bit better, comments seem to be more thoroughly moderated.

But DPR reviews still are biased from a Canon users perspective. They try hard to find any quirk to not give a gold award to a Canon product. One recent example is the review of the R7: they needed to pull the "not enough lenses" argument to keep it just in the "silver award" zone. In reality this argument is nonsense, since many users of that particular camera are wildlife photographers who upgraded from their 7D2. They are happy to mount it on their EF (super)teles anyway, Canon's adapter guarantees a smooth performance. But that's DPR, I do not mind about their ratings, but it would be a loss not to have this photo site anymore. Maybe visiting DPR is like a bad habit one doesn't want to miss, like sometimes smoking or drinking too much

 

[justaCanonuser]

I really like Canon as a brand, and one of my favorite Canon cameras is the R. For example, the R6 was an extremely bad experience for me and I sold it after having it for a little over a year. One of my two R's is still with me after almost 5 years and will be for a long time it seems. It's an excellent camera if you know what you need it for and if you're not blinded by those who baselessly speak against this camera, without ever having seen it live, let alone tried it or used it for a long time.

I do not have the R, but I understand your position very well. The most important aspect of photo gear today is that it fits as good as possible to your way of shooting. Personally, when I shoot full frame, I still am happy with my 5D IV (high ISO noise could be a bit better), it just is like an extension of my body. So, I can imagine that the R still is a very good camera in real life for many purposes. Plus, without IBIS, you never will have any sensor overheating issues.

 

[justaCanonuser]

I gave up on reading their reviews years ago. Is their bias and lack of Canon experience still present?

I recall @Sporgon calling out their 5DIII/D800 comparison where they complained about Canon’s shadow performance but did the test at sunset and shot the Canon about 30 min later (anyone who’s shot at sunset knows how much less light there is 30 min later).

My wife, a Nikonian who changed late from film to digital, because she as a skilled photographer was underwhelmed by digital image quality for a long time, was offered to test a then brandnew D800 in our local shop. So she took a bouquet of field flowers with very subtle color shadings with her, and to the amazement of all those male spec-oriented guys she started to shoot those flowers with the D800's auto settings in daylight and artificial light. Then, she did the same with my 5DIII back home. After checked the images side by side, she was shocked by the D800s bad color representation turning e.g. magenta into cold blue, exactly like her D300 that she really started to hate. She then was really close to change to Canon, since "color photography is about colors", as she pointed out. If she wouldn't have been so heavily invested in her Nikon gear, including her beloved classic analogue Nikons, she definitely would have changed. She really loved the out-of-camera colors of my 5DIII, that didn't need much post-processing.

Later, I wasn't surprised to read in Ming Thein's longterm review of the 5DSR the verdict "Much better color out of the box, especially for foliage and landscapes" compared with his D810. Only real photographers notice what matters in photography.

 

[justaCanonuser]

And sure there are some differences in the characteristics but the main thing is still the photographer.

I think that's it

 

[DhlcadR6]

That's true, but back in the days of slide film (my fav), EVERY subject needed careful exposure settings

And you have limited chances. Every shot counts.

I recently restarted my occasional visits of DPR, mostly of pure sentimentality I admit, to help gear patrol a bit. Before that crisis, I took a long break. In the first decade of this century, it was a great place for lab reviews (back then still desperately needed, CMOS sensor tech was underwhelming). Plus, you could expect a useful exchange in the threads about gear issues etc. Then, the Sony paTROLL started to trickle into Canon threads, and I said good-bye to DPR. Today, it is a bit better, comments seem to be more thoroughly moderated.

But DPR reviews still are biased from a Canon users perspective. They try hard to find any quirk to not give a gold award to a Canon product. One recent example is the review of the R7: they needed to pull the "not enough lenses" argument to keep it just in the "silver award" zone. In reality this argument is nonsense, since many users of that particular camera are wildlife photographers who upgraded from their 7D2. They are happy to mount it on their EF (super)teles anyway, Canon's adapter guarantees a smooth performance. But that's DPR, I do not mind about their ratings, but it would be a loss not to have this photo site anymore. Maybe visiting DPR is like a bad habit one doesn't want to miss, like sometimes smoking or drinking too much

DPR is still going hard to say R6ii and R8 has inferior video AF performance than Sony(and even Panasonic) despite other youtubers who brought and owned it can't find much criticism.

 

[EricN]

Consider that the ratio of lenses to bodies sold is somewhere between 1.6 - 1.8, and also consider entry-level kits make up most of the unit sales, and that the most popular kits are 2-lens kits. In other words, the installed base of camera users comprises a majority of people who own only the camera and the 1-2 lenses that came with it, and a minority of people who own >2 lenses. That means inertia is much less of a factor in the market than you're suggesting.

If inertia were a major factor, Nikon's market share would not have done this:

• 2017 – 24.9%
• 2018 – 20.2%
• 2019 – 18.6%
• 2020 – 13.7%
• 2021 – 11.3%

It's still mind-blowing Nikon lost that much market share.

 

[neuroanatomist]

It's still mind-blowing Nikon lost that much market share.

At least the hemorrhaging seems to have stopped (Nikon was essentially stable with 11.7% in 2022 compared to 11.3% in 2021).