Quad Pixel Autofocus is ready for production [CR1]

koenkooi

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I noticed this with an R7 I bought recently. Although the AF is supposed to be more advanced than the R5's, I was frustrated with its AF. It would also randomly bounce off of the subject/eye in focus, then back on. Just wouldn't stay locked on. My R5 almost never misses, and stays locked on.
I ended up returning the R7.
The software is more advanced in the R7, but the much slower sensor readout gets in the way.
I could see the software improvements when using the R7 and M6II side by side, it detected eyes much faster, better and tracked them better. But it would still wander between shots, the R5 doesn’t do that as much.

I have an R8 now, which combines the software improvements from the R7 with a sensor that has a similar readout speed as the R5. I have many more in focus picture of my kids now compared to the R5, same for birds close by. For things further away, the AF suffers from having fewer MP.

I’m glad I rented the R7 for a week, it wasn’t worth the money for me, since I already had the R5 and M6II.
 
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I noticed this with an R7 I bought recently. Although the AF is supposed to be more advanced than the R5's, I was frustrated with its AF. It would also randomly bounce off of the subject/eye in focus, then back on. Just wouldn't stay locked on. My R5 almost never misses, and stays locked on.
I ended up returning the R7.
did you tweak the settings? In general I use Case 2 and tune further to "-2" Tracking sensitivity.

And bear in mind the R7 has weaker -EV sensitivity than all the RF full-frames and adapting 3rd party EF/early generation of EF will contribute to unstable AF.
 
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Jul 28, 2015
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I noticed this with an R7 I bought recently. Although the AF is supposed to be more advanced than the R5's, I was frustrated with its AF. It would also randomly bounce off of the subject/eye in focus, then back on. Just wouldn't stay locked on. My R5 almost never misses, and stays locked on.
I ended up returning the R7.
This mirrors (did I really say that?) my experience with the 7DII/5DIV - same generation technology but the APS-C was for some reason more twitchy. I read one explanation that it was an outcome of higher pixel density.
 
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What has mirrorless to do with AF? I thought the point was that you see what you get in the EVF. If you expose wrong, you notice it right away.

That's a nice theory, but it isn't true - particularly in low ambient light - due to amplification of the EVF. It's quite common (for me anyway) when shooting strobes to have awesome looking exposure in the EVF with photos with are surprisingly dark on the computer. I keep the histogram visible specifically for that reason, (and still want a grayscale histogram based on the RAW readout rather than the darned JPEG preview!!).
 
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koenkooi

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That's a nice theory, but it isn't true - particularly in low ambient light - due to amplification of the EVF. It's quite common (for me anyway) when shooting strobes to have awesome looking exposure in the EVF with photos with are surprisingly dark on the computer. I keep the histogram visible specifically for that reason, (and still want a grayscale histogram based on the RAW readout rather than the darned JPEG preview!!).
Isn’t exposure simulation turned off when using strobes?
 
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Michael Clark

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DSLR's use a hardware based AF system. There's some limited implementation of the same dual pixel sensor based AF that is matured on the mirrorless cameras on the last gen DSLR's (such as the 1DXIII and 5Dmk4). This is usually activated via the live view mode. I noticed on my old 5Dmk3 that the live view
AF was a lot more accurate (although slow) than the primary AF system.

Where as the Mirrorless cameras took this software based AF system to a whole different level. Now with facial recognition, Eye detect and super fast servo tracking, the R5/R6ii and R3's AF is in a wholly different league. Now the whole frame is an active AF point and the servo tracking is now simply astonishing.

The EVF's in most of Canon's linage are only 2mp is resolution and it no where near is deatiled enough to see fine focus. The 3.5mp EVF in the R6ii is noticbably better, but still quite poor. I have to trust wholly in my R6ii/R8's amazing AF to nail the focus on my EF 35mm f1.4 IIL, EF 85mm F1.2 II L and EF 135mm F2.0 L lenses. The R5 and R3 have the Canon flagship 5.6mp EVF and they are noticably better. There are rumours that Canon will be fitting a 8mp EVF into the R1 and R5mkII....whihc again will be a substantial upgrade.

In short, the newer Canon mirrorless cameras have state of the art AF systems and current best in class EVF's. It's the EVF's that really need to improve to really take over from the previous state of the art optical view finders.

The 1D X Mark III abandoned the traditional PDAF array and instead uses what is essentially a second imaging sensor with much larger (and fewer) pixels than the imaging sensor itself. This gives it better low light AF sensitivity/speed than using Live View. Of course there is still the need to insure that the reflex mirror based system has the secondary imaging sensor the same optical distance from the lens as the primary imaging sensor.
 
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Michael Clark

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Canon's drum is the loudest, though. When you're pounding a big bass drum, you don't need to worry much if the little snare drums are not matching your tempo, because you're enforcing the tempo for the orchestra.

The original EOS line was transformative – autofocus lenses and a new mount lacking backward compatibility. Digital SLRs were a paradigm shift for the industry. The switch to mirrorless is a modest evolution, a DSLR without the mirror. Yes, there's a new mount but everyone's old lenses work via a simple adapter that even adds various functionality. So things keep going right on schedule. No need to put out the R1 ahead of schedule. That's why in 2020, they released a flagship camera as a DLSR.

The most likely target audience for the R1 are owners of the 1D X II, and secondarily owners of the 1D X III and owners of both who already switched to an R3.


I was referring to a change in the name as a result of that as being unlikely. Competitive intelligence works both ways. Canon knew what Sony and Nikon were planning long before the R3 launched, and Sony and Nikon knew what Canon was developing as the R3.

It's pretty simple, IMO. If I point my R3 at louvered closet doors, or for a more relevant example at the horizontal rail at the inner edge of the horse racing track, it simply will not lock focus. When Canon said the technology was not ready for them to call it a 1-series camera, it's an obvious problem for a flagship camera to be unable to focus on a high-contrast feature in a specific orientation.


For a long time Canon seemed to release their products when they wanted to with no regard for what any of their competitors were doing.

The flies in the ointment for that theory with regard to Canon's mirrorless strategy, though, are the existence of the EOS R and EOS RP.

We have yet to see if the EOS R3 will also be a "one and done" model or not. My personal opinion today leans slightly towards probably not, but yesterday it might have leaned slightly towards probably is a one off, and it may lean back that way again tomorrow. It's still a Schrödinger's cat at this point.
 
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Michael Clark

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I sure hope that gets fixed with the R7 II.

If so, it will be a repeat of the 7D and 7D Mark II.

The 7D AF was horribly inconsistent from shot to shot. [My personal experience mirrored Roger's test results.]
The 7D Mark II AF was what the 7D should have been from the get-go. [My hit rates went up dramatically shooting with the 7D/5D Mark III compared to the 7D/5D Mark II.]
 
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Michael Clark

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This mirrors (did I really say that?) my experience with the 7DII/5DIV - same generation technology but the APS-C was for some reason more twitchy. I read one explanation that it was an outcome of higher pixel density.

With DSLRs which used a dedicated PDAF array, pixel density of the imaging sensor doesn't matter. It's the difference in width of the baseline between a wider and narrower mirror. Or more specifically, the width of the half silvered portion of the mirror. The wider the baseline, the more accurate a PDAF system can be.


If you're talking about comparing the results while pixel peeping on a monitor, then pixel density does come into play since looking at a denser sensor's result at 100% will yield a higher magnification ratio than looking at a lower density sensor's result at 100% on the same monitor. If you magnify the same amount of blur by a higher magnification ratio, you're also enlarging the blur more. That makes it easier to see the same blur.

For example, if you use a 24" FHD monitor with 96ppi, a 24MP FF image at 100% will show the equivalent of a piece of a roughly 60x40 inch enlargement. A 50MP FF image viewed at 100% will show the equivalent of a piece of an 85x57 enlargement. Now factor in that a 20MP APS-C sensor has the same density as a 50MP FF sensor, and when you look at the 7D Mark II on that same monitor the enlargement ratio is the same as an 85x57 inch display size of a FF image.
 
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Michael Clark

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That's a nice theory, but it isn't true - particularly in low ambient light - due to amplification of the EVF. It's quite common (for me anyway) when shooting strobes to have awesome looking exposure in the EVF with photos with are surprisingly dark on the computer. I keep the histogram visible specifically for that reason, (and still want a grayscale histogram based on the RAW readout rather than the darned JPEG preview!!).

A greyscale histogram of the raw information before gamma correction has been applied would be a huge lump all the way to the left of every properly exposed shot.
 
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Michael Clark

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Yes. Brain fart. I'm talking about review of a photo looking overly bright, not capture.

I withdraw my comment :)

The point remains, though. EVFs can have their brightness increased/decreased independently from exposure. Eyes also adapt to darker environments, making the same screen brightness look brighter to the viewer when viewing it in the dark.
 
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Michael Clark

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1 guy's answer:
A - For people who are already super happy with the R3, 24 MP is indeed sufficient
B - For many people who held off buying the R3 (or returned it, as I did), it is not
C - Many anticipate that this os one reason why the R1 will have higher resolution, as it would make total sense to rationally-brained people
D - Canon has never followed that logic with the 1 series cameras, and I don't expect them to suddenly start following Sony/Nikon's product strategies just because they make sense.

For the first decade+ of the digital 1-Series, Canon followed a strategy of two different 1-Series bodies: The 1D for speed with lower resolution and an APS-H sensor, the 1Ds for higher resolution with a FF sensor at reduced frame rates. Only with the introduction of the 1D X in 2012 did that change. The 1D Mark IV had a 16.1 MP APS-H sensor that could go at 10fps. (BLAZING speed at the time!) The 1Ds Mark II had 22.1 MP FF sensor that maxed out at 5 fps. The 1D X had an 18 MP FF sensor and 12 fps top speed (with AF and metering between every frame - it could do 14fps with exposure and AF locked in for the duration of the burst).

Not coincidentally, in 2012 Canon also introduced the 22.1 MP 5D Mark III as Canon's highest resolution EOS camera with a near 1-series AF system (it had the same PDAF sensor part number as the 1D X, but slightly downgraded AF menu options) at the same time it discontinued the 21.1 MP 1Ds Mark III which had been Canon's highest resolution EOS camera. The previous 21.0 MP 5D Mark II had an AF system that was little better than Rebels had at that time, and the 21 MP 5D Mark II also had slightly lower resolution than the 21.1 MP 1Ds Mark III.

Effectively what Canon did with the 1D X in 2012 was give the "fast" 1D a FF sensor and discontinued the 1Ds in lieu of a pro-grade 5D Mark III without the larger battery and the built-in vertical controls.

No one else had a FF DSLR with resolution greater than Nikon's 24.4 MP/5fps D3X and Sony's 24.6/5fps α900 at the beginning of 2012. The D3s was 12.1 MP/9fps.

Sony didn't have a single FF MILC model in 2012. The α7 series debuted in late 2013.
Sony's A-mount α900 DSLR was a 2009 consumer grade 24.6 MP/5fps model. The 24.6MP/10fps α99 replaced it in late 2012.

Nikon introduced the 36 MP/4fps D800 the same month that Canon brought out the 1D X in March, 2012. Their D4 "flagship" body, also introduced in early 2012, was 16.2 MP/10fps.
 
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For a long time Canon seemed to release their products when they wanted to with no regard for what any of their competitors were doing.

The flies in the ointment for that theory with regard to Canon's mirrorless strategy, though, are the existence of the EOS R and EOS RP.

We have yet to see if the EOS R3 will also be a "one and done" model or not. My personal opinion today leans slightly towards probably not, but yesterday it might have leaned slightly towards probably is a one off, and it may lean back that way again tomorrow. It's still a Schrödinger's cat at this point.

Canon have been the main player and influencer in the DSLR world for as long as the genre has existed. Canon has a vast resource of R&D compared to it's immediate competition (pre Sony). It's also got similar portfolios in other genres that allow it to pool development and integrate technologies across it's product base. They were the first to push optical lens image stabilisation, CMOS sensor architecture (which was counter market at the time, but become the norm).
Sony are Canon's biggest threat in the market place due to it's corporate size and the number of patents it currenlty owns and operates across it's diverse market portfolio, similar to Canon's. Nikon, Olympus, Hasselblad etc...these are weak and niche companies compared to the developement might of Canon and Sony.
Every camera from Canon has been a mule to develop a specific technology or push a specific boundary. In latter years (since the 5DIII & 1Dx, cameras are developed in tandem and their R&D is spead across multiple camera bodies because they are too vast a spend in developement to occurr with just one camera.
The develeopment is usually an exercise to build cheaper, lighter or better in a pre-designated area. Sometimes this area is the AF, sensor design, user interface. Or in the case of the Eos R, a ground up re-envisioning of what a Canon camera will look like and how it will perform. Everything (except the sensor was new). Some features were warmly recieved, others like the weird nav bar was dropped unceremoniously. For me, coming from Manual focus SLR's, AF SLR's, DSLR's, the Eos R was too different and too immature for me to transition to. The AI focus offered some great benefits but was vastly different (and slower to operate) than I was used to. Even now with the R6ii I sometimes wrestle with the AI driven AF to get it to focus and stick on what I want it to. The EVF was vastly different in look and feel to the old school optical viewfinders that I was used too. To me the Eos R was a beta, a bit like the Eos D30. But I was very aware that Canon was investing a small fortune in targetted respurce to develop this new direction and it was the future. The EOS R led to the R5, R6 and RP which were the first run of Canon Mirrorless R series cameras beyond the obviously beta Eos R. Effectively they were Canon's R&D round 2, with a lot of lessons learned. We assume that Canon's intention is to make cameras to sell to us as consumers, but that's not quite right. Canon's makes cameras so they can develop technologies that they can use across it's diverse product portfolio. Each round of camera design and development allows their co-ordinated engineers to push against boundaries and knock on specific doors.

Canon is an impressive company, their focus on market and developement strategy is simply amazing. With this comes a self centered focus that's more interested in their own internal development than what it's competitors are doing. However...Canon these days will have an eye on what Sony are doing and developing.

The R3 is another example of Canon's long game development. It was curiously co-developed with the R6ii with both sharing the jump in AI AF technology. It's this fact has led many to belive that the R3 is in fact a 1 series version of R6 and that the next gen of pro cameras being devleoped is the R1 and R5mkII combo. Some have predicted that the R1 will share the R5ii's MP count and effectively be a top tier 1 series version of the R5. If this is true, then there will at some point be a R3 mkII and a R6 mkIII combo. Canon will refresh these lines because they will want something out of their R&D....not just to provide the market with a newer range of cameras.

Canon's camera division makes most of their money from the lenses not the cameras. The cameras are a R&D loss leader to sell lenses. The R mount is a closed loop ecology. Canon have only a limited time to create a portfolio of lenses becfore it's patents run out and are forced (either legally or by market demand) to allow 3rd party cheaper (but inferior) lens onto their closed platform. If you look over their currnet RF lens catalogue, your will see a lot of top end L lenses, many are the best of breed. Then you will see a lot of excellent bottom tier cheaper lenses, which are the cheapest Canon have ever built. There is hardly anything in the middle ground. Only the new RF 200-800 silver ring lens bridges this gap. Maybe we will see more in this range going forwards?
 
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@GMCPhotographics
Sony is stepping into market as a Godzilla instead of David vs Goliath. Canon is being the David now.

Canon focus more on the high&low end is not a surprise as they need to keep the pros in stadiums, journalists and uneducated happy first. They are the biggest cake for the camera market.

As for your concerns on AI AF not being your taste. You can turn that off and it will behave like traditional Servo AF. My set-up is mainly on 1-spot AF to grab the desired target first. And set the AF preference to stay with initial subject(s).
 
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Del Paso

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Sony is stepping into market as a Godzilla instead of David vs Goliath. Canon is being the David now.

Canon focus more on the high&low end is not a surprise as they need to keep the pros in stadiums, journalists and uneducated happy first. They are the biggest cake for the camera market.

As for your concerns on AI AF not being your taste. You can turn that off and it will behave like traditional Servo AF. My set-up is mainly on 1-spot AF to grab the desired target first. And set the AF preference to stay with initial subject(s).
Godzilla always dies in the end...;)
 
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Sony is stepping into market as a Godzilla instead of David vs Goliath. Canon is being the David now.
I’m not familiar with the version of that story where David is over twice the size of Goliath. I think you need to pick a different allegory to illustrate whatever point you’re trying to make.

Are you unaware that Sony’s market gains have come at the expense of Nikon, not Canon?
 
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The cameras are a R&D loss leader to sell lenses.
I have my doubts about this.
Canon mostly sells cheap cameras and cheap lenses.
I have no doubt that they make most of their money on lenses.
However, the EF mount was used by a lot of camera vendors while the RF is only Canon and RED.
Sigma is pushing for the L mount to become the standard mount for full-frame mirrorless video.
 
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